Hello!

Today I’m giving you a transcript dump of Episode 26. I didn’t want to abbreviate it since this is such a relevant question that pastors and wives grapple with: how do we know when it’s time to go? My husband Greg joins me to discuss how we’ve personally prayed through this numerous times throughout our ministry marriage. If you want to hear our entire conversation, click below to listen to the podcast.

Episode Description: One of the hardest aspects of ministry life can be determining if God is leading us out of our current church or into a new place of service. When is the right time to leave? How do we pray through unexpected job offers when we’re happy where we are? Check out Married to the Ministry to hear Janet and her husband share how they’ve navigated these decisions as pastor and wife. 

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Janet:

Today we’re going to be covering a topic that I see a lot of pastors’ wives asking this question, and having been married to my husband and lots of times in the room when he is talking to other guys on the phone, I know that lots of pastors will call him and ask his advice on this question too. And that is the question of, how do you know when it’s time to go? How do you know when God’s calling you out of the place of ministry where you’re currently serving to another one, and sometimes just out and you don’t have a place to go yet, but you’re praying through, are we supposed to leave? So I know that we have lived through this numerous times, so we have experience personally with this and even when God clearly tells you, it does not mean it’s easy or comfortable always. So I’m going to let Greg carry the bulk of this because he knows what a pastor goes through with this.

Greg:

Well, we certainly have been through a lot of experiences. We’ve said no to churches that turn out to be great churches and we’ve been rejected. I have some of the craziest rejection stories that you’ve ever heard. We’ve gone to churches that have been great churches. We’ve been in spots that were good and one that was not and all kinds of stuff. So we’ve been through all of this.

Janet:

We’ve been courted for nine months by some churches.

Greg:

And then told no.

Janet:

And then told no. Yeah, we got lots of stories.

Greg:

Well and then having served as an executive in the Arkansas Baptist Convention, like Janet said, I’ve had all kinds of conversations with guys, prayed with guys through decisions in lots of ways. And so it’s a real experience in ministry. It’s a difficult experience in ministry and it’s one that requires just some wisdom. So I think it’s great, sweetheart, that you’ve listened to the wives and stuff and decided to do this as a topic.

Janet:

Yeah, I’m going to let him talk about the pastor’s perspective from it all and when appropriate, I’ll butt in with the wife’s perspective. I’ll just tell you right now, we talked about how we should address the impact on children of praying through this process, moving kids and all that when you’re changing ministry positions and we are going to let that be its own episode. So hopefully the next one after this airs, we’re going to cover that.

Greg:

Because there’s a lot with it.

Janet:

There’s a lot and it just was getting too big. This is a big enough topic just what we’re going to be talking about. So I know that the children aspect of it is a very critical part of the puzzle when you’re praying through ministry changes. We will be covering that in a upcoming episode. Let’s just start off, honey, how do you know when it’s time to go?

Greg:

Well, that is the question that every guy asks when they call, especially if they’ve not moved before. And that’s exactly how they stage it and it’s exactly what it feels like and it’s hard because that’s our perspective. I’m excited about some new opportunity or I’m frustrated here or I’ve got different ideas that are like, “How do I know when to go?” Well, let me step back from that and just make sure we fundamentally understand what the question should be. As pastors, we are called by the Lord and he directs our steps, which also means he directs the places that he serves. I tell guys all the time, look, we’re just soldiers and He is the general in headquarters and He cuts our marching orders. And so the real question is how do I discern His direction? That’s the real question. How do I discern His direction?

And I think it’s important that we start from that. It sounds a little simple, first gradey, pastor 101 ish, but in the middle of all this stuff or if you’re in a crisis in your church or all these kinds of situations, man, it’s easy to lose that and it becomes can I go? When should I go? I don’t want to go. And we need to always be reminded that this is really how do I discern God’s direction? Now every church is different, every situation is different. So it’s hard to broad brush that, but there are some very clear principles I think that help us in the process of discerning as God said, “Go.”

The first thing I think we ought to cover is when not to leave. This is not God’s voice to you in these situations, most likely. Again, these are principles, so you have to apply them in your circumstance. So the first one I’d say is burnout. It’s very common that guys try to move and burn out and they try to get the excitement of a new thing to give them a little jolt, a change to give them a little jolt. But if you’re burned out, that’s not the voice of God telling you to go. Most likely that’s somehow my patterns are bad in how I’m doing this or I’ve overextended myself and he didn’t want you to move and be burned out at a new church.

Janet:

That’s what I was just thinking. It’s not going to bless another church to get a burned out pastor. You’ve still got to fix the burnout problem.

Greg:

That’s right. You need to figure out a way to step back where you are and get some healing. Get some wisdom to evaluate how you’re doing things, how you’re approaching. Wives, you’re a great help to your husbands. Don’t chew on him about being burned out because he’s already strung out. Go to him in love and help him understand that. Encourage him to seek advice on evaluating how he’s going about what he’s doing so that we can fix that issue. And so I think a lot of times guys will leave for that little jolt for a short period of time if that didn’t fix the problem. Simply leaving because ooh, that church has got to be awesome or it’s got to be better than this.

Janet:

The shiny new thing syndrome.

Greg:

That’s right. I’ve heard a lot of guys say this, “What looks like an opportunity very much can be temptation in disguise.” The grass is never greener. We’re pastoring our third full-time church. We did nine interims. I’ve worked with churches all over our entire state. I can tell you there are no churches that are healthy. That church is not better than yours. It has its own set of problems and everything else. And those people are there-

Janet:

Maybe a different set of problems, but there’s still problems.

Greg:

Well, those people that are chewing on your church, I guarantee you they have a cousin at that other one. So it’s hard but it’s hard to see that and we all get that. So you’ve got to really try to step back from that and discern, is God really doing this just because it looks cooler or better? We had a church that called and it just wasn’t time for us to leave. We hadn’t been in our current one long enough and I felt like it was a matter of integrity that we had to be there. And another church called us at our first church and Janet stepped in and said, “No, that does not look like us and we haven’t been here long enough and we don’t need to move the kids that quickly.” There are things like that. Just because a church calls doesn’t mean you’re supposed to go there.

Janet:

Even if the pulpit committee shows up en masse one night, takes you to dinner and you’ve never heard of them before and they say, “We’ve been meeting, we’ve been checking you out for months and we’re in unanimous agreement, you are God’s man for our church.” Even then, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s time to go.

Greg:

That is correct, and that did happen. So I told you we have some incredible stories. They’re pretty amazing, but that’s part of the journey of ministry. But those kinds of things. And then here’s another thing, crisis and difficulty does not automatically mean that you’re supposed to leave. In fact, a lot of times in crisis we were called there to work them through that or if it’s something that a leadership mess up on our part or failure on our part or mistake on our part, it may be that we need to be there to help fix that and work through that and grow through that. And there’s a lot of grace and there’s a lot of richness in the fruit of God healing and growing through those moments that speak louder than whatever the initial struggle might’ve been. But just because something is hard doesn’t mean that you’re supposed to go because most likely, again, every church is broken, none of them are healthy and you’re just going to run into something else in the next one.

Janet:

Ministry is hard. Ministry in the Bible was hard.

Greg:

It is hard. I remember one time I called my mom, I was frustrated with what I was doing. Both of our parents were blessed, they’re church folks and Sunday school teachers and all that. So they’re good advisors. So I was frustrated with something and I was ready to do something else. I was done with it and I called her and I was griping about this person left and this person left and that deal and this whatever and whatever. And my mom said, “Well, I’m sorry you didn’t read your bible because Jesus said that the wide road’s easy, but the narrow one that all the people going to heaven on is really hard.” I thought, “Well, nobody grabs you around the throat like moms, right?” So that is not necessarily an indicator that it’s time to leave at all. It may be you’re the tool God has brought in to grow them through that. And while it may be difficult, there can be incredible fruit and joy in that. We’ve been called to churches following terminated pastors and all of that.

Janet:

Every single time.

Greg:

And I can tell you while it’s hard, there is also incredible grace and wonderful meaningful fruit in the recovery and the healing and the restoration in those circumstances. And so those are some things that I think are not indicators, those are not principles that we use to determine if God is calling us to go. Now, so what are some of those indicators? Well, here are some that I think are tried and true through town. First of all, I would say the impact on your family. It may be time to go because your family needs to go somewhere else or do something else. Pastors are, in this order, a blood-bought son of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. We are a son of God. Number two, we are a husband and dad. And number three, we are called to ministry in that priority order. And inverting that order is not serving the Lord. And so there are lots of circumstances where the impact on your family is key in the decision, am I supposed to go or am I not supposed to go?

Janet:

Okay, let’s stop here for a minute and I want you to give us some examples of that.

Greg:

Okay. I have a number of friends and guys I’ve prayed with through who left because their parents were aging or their wife’s parents were aging and it was just necessary for them to be near them and take care of them. Either no one could or no one would, or it was just the circumstance and they moved to smaller churches or a different role or same-sized church, but moved to get closer because that family obligation in their particular family was vital and important. I’ve had guys not move because their wife or their kids couldn’t move and I think that is appropriate. God’s not going to change you to intentionally harm your children. He’s just not going to do that. He loves us and that’s not what this role is about. You may have kids with special needs and I’ve served with guys who had that and they couldn’t leave a certain area because the treatment for their child was there or they had to move in that certain area because of that. There are lots of family indicators like that.

There may be a situation there, it’s just untenable for your children and they can’t function there. 

Or a church has called and said… And you’re praying through your church, you love your church, you’re trying to rehabilitate your church, but there’s no children’s ministry for your kids and they’re in the most crucial time and here’s a church that calls you and there’s children and all that. I think it’s very appropriate to be a dad, to be a husband alongside being a minister. And why? That’s where you’re either a major drain on your husband because you’re demanding something selfishly or you are an incredible wisdom source to your husband by helping him understand the impact on kids or on the family or what the needs are and walking through that with him and you can just be such an incredible source of wisdom and freeing and release to allow him to, yeah, we can go or whatever, when you talk through that.

Janet, through the years, has many times told me you are missing what’s happening to your kids because she’s a mom, she’s there and she’s coaching me through that. And so you have an incredible role in this particular principal, ladies.

Janet:

Well, and I know that we have had experience with ministers who did want to answer a call to a new place and their wives refused to go and I don’t know, I guess that’s a fine line between, no, I’m not going to leave my mama and move somewhere else. That’s a delicate dance, I guess. So I guess as a wife, I would never want to squelch the work of the Holy Spirit in our family or in your ministry because we’ve moved some places I didn’t want to move and we’ve moved some places that I knew were going to be a little harder on the family, but not to the point that I felt like I needed to put my foot down and say, “Well, you’re welcome to go, but we’re not going with you,” kind of thing.

Greg:

Well, I think that’s well said, Janet. And I think it’s a matter of motive and discernment for the ladies. If you’re just locking down because you don’t want to, well, none of us get that right.

Janet:

I guess that’s where my heart was when you told me about these situations. I was like, “I don’t remember getting us…” I didn’t know that was part of it to tell the Lord no after we had surrendered our lives to Christ and now we’ve surrendered our vocation to the Lord. So it would be a very rare circumstance that I personally feel like I would say no.

Greg:

But I do think that a lot of times men being men, I’m sure I have done this and Janet’s probably just gracious and not tell the 100 times I did it, but where I just plowed ahead because I got all excited about something and it wasn’t right and she had had the wisdom and heard from the Holy Spirit that it wasn’t. And so you have a role and if you feel like the Holy Spirit is telling you this is not right for spiritual reasons or just discernment reasons, be a voice and talk to your husband.

Janet:

Well, I do know that every time we have moved, it was very important for me to get my own word from the Lord because if we moved somewhere and I just had your word that God said this is what we were supposed to do and we got there and we hated it and were miserable, then I was going to be mad at you. And I didn’t want that to be part of our home. So I always ask the Lord to give me for my own peace of mind, my own confirmation, in addition to what God was telling you. And every time He did and I was able to tell you, even when you knew it wasn’t not necessarily a place I wanted to go, you knew that I had heard clearly from the Lord that yes, we’re supposed to go.

And so that helps me know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is moving us here. So I think that is a very important part of it. And if you get somewhere and you’re miserable and your kids are miserable and everybody’s whining and crying, I wanted to be able to say, “No, no, no, no, this is not your dad’s fault. God moved our family and your dad and I were in agreement that this was God’s plan for us.” So to put that stuff in perspective, but I think it’s very important that the wife should have as much of a prayerful confirmation as the… Not that I’m going to usurp your decision.

Greg:

Right. No, I think that’s great wisdom and it has really been a blessing. And we’ve been in some places where, again, fired pastors and healing stuff and there were times it was hard and that confirmation did exactly that. It was an anchoring that we both had. And that goes back to why I started with the central truth is we’re discerning God’s direction. And so that helps, ladies, it helps guide you in sorting your emotions and it should help guide you in how you speak into this with your husband as you guys are praying through that together. And so I think hopefully that central truth helps you see that. One other thing I’d say is this. I know that finances are difficult out there so much, and I think in the family category, I would say a lot of times if all things being equal and you’re called to ministry and God opens a door that provides better, we’re not chasing money, but if you’re drowning where you are, God provides. And so I think that is a legitimate consideration as long as you’re not chasing money. You don’t do that.

Janet:

I have to giggle because I’m thinking of a guy that we served with one time who cracked us up because he said, “God’s everywhere. Go where the money is.” But you’re right, sometimes there’s no money or the benefits are very limited.

Greg:

It may be insurance for your family or something. And those things are hard to sort through.

Janet:

Or cost of living compared to the salary that’s being offered or whatever.

Greg:

There’s a difference of cost of living in California than it is in Alabama. And so I think that those are factors if you put them in the family category. I don’t want to ignore that, but it’s important that we are not chasing money, but providing for your family is a part of what you’re supposed to do. And so I think that’s in the family consideration. The next principle I would say is that, and this happens, God gives you a clear yes or a clear no. And there have been a couple of times where it was not a conversation or a searching, God showed up and placed a clear stamp on my heart, this is over, we’re moving. And usually it came with an instruction, don’t mess anything up, don’t create problems. This journey is done.

Janet:

Don’t start anything new.

Greg:

Yeah, this journey is done. So what you need to do is keep it healthy because we’re moving and so stop trying to push things, grow things, make things healthy, settle, encourage, be a blessing, and we’re moving. And that’s happened a couple of times. Sometimes it happens through a verse, he confirms it in a verse, but sometimes it is just as it says in Romans 8, God’s spirit bears witness with our spirit. Man, I can tell you one of those exactly where I was sitting, exactly what he said. It was like he had spoken. And when God gives you a clear word, we all know you must obey that. There’s no more decision.

Janet:

I know the first church that we took as you being pastor, we drove to a small town and I’d been telling you our entire married life, “Don’t ever move me to a small town unless it’s a college town.” This was not a college town. It was just a small town. And there wasn’t a lot of economic boom visible, I’ll say, as we drove into the small town. And then we pull up to the church and my heart sunk because I thought, “This is an old building.” And when we walked in the sanctuary, I heard God, I felt him tap my shoulder and say, “This is it.” And I thought, “Really?” But that’s exactly right. Even I felt a very clear confirmation in my spirit that even if it’s not something I would’ve chosen, and even if it’s something that I had to accept in faith, that I would grow to love it. I still recognized the Holy Spirit saying, “This is the way, walk in.”

Greg:

Well, clarity, God usually never has a problem with clarity. Sometimes he makes us wait to get our attention or to build our faith, but when he makes it clear, he makes it clear.

Janet:

Yeah, we have an obedience problem more than we have a clarity problem lots of times.

Greg:

Here’s the next principle, and I learned this in a church and I’ve had this advice from older guys and I’ve walked through it with some other guys. This is a pretty time-honored deal. Sometimes, especially when you’re young, you go to a church that’s a certain size, it may be in a certain area and it doesn’t have as many people, so it’s not going to be quite as large or whatever. You go there, you’re learning, you’re growing, you’re being faithful in ministry, you’re making an impact, you’re leading that church forward. But then there’s a point where that church stops and they have a growth capacity within the culture and the body of the church that they just stop.

And I had some advice, older, really wise minister said, “Look, Greg, sometimes they just stop and they still love you. They want you to stay and preach and visit them in the hospital and disciple their kids and they want you to do that, but they’re not going to go any further. They’re not going to reach anybody else. They’re not going to step in faith across some major barrier or do anything, they’re just going to stop.” And he said, “When they’ve stopped and you’ve stopped long enough, then you know there’s another stage of life in this church and someone else leads that part. And you have got to go somewhere else.” And I remember a church I was in and it just hit that place and it was all good. God had blessed. Things were great, they were wonderful, they loved us and we needed to do some things to keep moving forward. And they just, “This is awesome, pastor. We never thought we’d be in a church that’s great. We’re just stopped.”

Janet:

This is good enough.

Greg:

We’re just stopped. And I heard the Lord say, “Okay, we’re finished, son, don’t push. Don’t strain against the rains. Don’t undo what I have done so far good here. Just wait.” And so I think that is an indicator when you hit that point. Now a lot of churches will have growth and then they’ll settle or maybe even slide back a little bit and then you do some changes or some leadership things and God moves and you grow again. So we’re not talking about a little plateau like that, but when they just emotionally and spiritually stop, like Janet said.

Janet:

Dig in their heels.

Greg:

This is it. Well then you know and so don’t create problems, just be patient, be positive, be encouraging and look for that open door God is bringing. Here’s another one, the worst version of that. And this is hard for guys to go through. When they are not going to follow you and they refuse you as their leader. Sometimes that ends up in termination. Sometimes it just ends up in stalemate and stagnancy, but we are called to serve the body of Christ. And when it hits that point that we can’t lead them and they’re not going to follow us and there’s no leadership going and we’ve got conflict and that nature going on, then it’s time to leave. It’s not time to fight the church and all that kind of stuff.

Now, there are times you’re in crisis or conflict over what’s right and what’s wrong, and we have to lead and all those kinds of things, but we’re talking about situations or principles that give you the ability to discern God is moving you. And when that church has rejected you, then that is an indication you back up, be positive and encouraging, just try to love through that. Don’t push anything, don’t move anything and just look. And then if you think you’ve hit a point where, well, you can’t even stay, that’s okay. God’s going to take care of you. And that happens.

But in that moment you just stop and you start looking because God is probably moving and going to open a door for you at some point. And so what we don’t want to do is wreak more havoc than is already there, but that’s an indicator. And then here’s the last thing. Every pastor should have some advisors that you consult. I have them in my life and they are an incredible resource. The Bible repeats over and over, there’s wisdom in a multitude of counselors, wise kings, wage war by wise counsel and they will discern and help you. They’re objective, they have clarity, they have experiences and they’ll help you in that. And so those are some key factors I believe that will help pastors understand. There’s one other and it’s a good transition to talk to staff pastors a little bit.

This is another principle that you walk through. If your passion and ministry has radically changed, happens a lot of times in young guys, you start as a student pastor and then you want to be a pastor. But it happens with senior pastors as well. There are worship pastors that move into pastor roles and there are pastors that go to start ministries or-

Janet:

Or the mission field.

Greg:

Or the mission field. That’s exactly right. Different things like that. We’ve had friends that go plant churches when they were pastoring a nice sized church, those kinds of things. When God changes your passion and it’s so clear and it’s so consistent and it lingers, that really can be an indication that he’s moving you from this role to another role. And I believe in that time you need to be discerning and you need to start listening.

Janet:

Well, and when you left pastoring to step onto the convention staff, that’s a similar type of… God was changing your ministry heart for a while and then He changed it back and you came back into the church.

Greg:

Yeah, gave me a passion to be back in the pastorate. And so He does. And so He changes those passions and we grow. We move through those things as that happens in the course of ministry. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all. That’s good. That’s the work of God placing those passions and those things are being expressed out in our ministry. And so as that happens, it may happen. Now a lot of guys like me, I just can’t imagine not preaching, but different guys, God may morph that passion and change that. And if He does be open to that, that He is working out something and moving you into another role and He has usefulness and ministry and blessing for you there.

Janet:

I will say I remember vividly after a meeting that we had at our house with some church leadership, something about the meeting, everything was clicking and afterwards, I’ll never forget you told me, “They’ve got it. They can go on without me and I feel released. I don’t know when God’s going to move me, but I feel released because I feel like I’ve completed the task I was supposed to complete at this place.” And sometimes just the completion of something because you don’t want to leave the church hanging on a precipice if you can avoid it. But knowing things have clicked, things have gelled, they’re going to be okay, they can take the vision forward without me until somebody else gets there. I just remember you telling me after that meeting, “I felt released.”

Greg:

Yeah, I remember that very clearly as one of those times God spoke clearly and it also gave you that sense of that’s why He had put me in that role. In that role, there were two things happening, what He was using me to do in that body and what He was doing in me to grow me as His servant and those things meshed and they were completed and it was a positive thing. It was a sense of well-done good and faithful servant, not that I did a good job, but we were a part of God healing and developing and creating what we were there to do in that stage.

Janet:

But you helped them get to the next stage and they helped you get ready for the next stage.

Greg:

Yep. And it’s a wonderful thing. And then when you leave, you have a sense of I’m not leaving this, I’m going to that. And those are very different. You can leave and get away from something or you can have some struggle and lingering heart issues because I love these people and I love this church, but God has clearly called me there.

I remember one of the churches that he called us to, we were praying through, and our church where we were loved us, and we were praying through are we going to that or not? I remember driving into that town and when I looked physically where the church was, I heard the voice of God in my mind, in my spirit say, “That is my corner. That is a strategic corner. I planted a church there and I’m not going to give that corner up.” And I thought, “Okay, I have clear marching orders that I’m to come here and I’m to make sure that this church grows and heals and go through this next stage of deal.” So you get that completion sense. Sometimes He gives you that mission sense and He works those out.

Janet:

Well, you’ve talked a lot about the lead pastor aspect of it. What about for a guy who is a staff pastor, part of a larger staff? Talk about that a little bit how when you’re done.

Greg:

That’s a great question. And I know just from you and I talking, you have staff wives that listen to your podcast and I think that’s incredible because we were staff pastor and staff wife before we were senior pastor. So we went through that process and I work with lots of guys, I work with guys on my staff who leave and go to other roles. And so the first thing I’d say is that passion conversation I just had, that really is applicable to a staff position as well. You start out as a student pastor or whatever, some kind of a deal, and you’re in that role. And as you grow in the ministry, as you move forward in the ministry, as God equips you more, as you get more experiences, you see all of that.

Sometimes what He wants you to do gets fleshed out more or He births a new passion in you and you want to change a role or go become a senior pastor or something and watch for that, especially younger guys and staff guys. That passion role is really great advice for you as you feel that happening. When I was a singles pastor on staff at Bellevue where Dr. Adrian Rogers was the pastor, it was great. We were growing, things were awesome. I knew I was preparing to be a pastor one day, but I didn’t know when that would be. 

And then I reached a point where I realized all of a sudden the things that we were doing that were effective, I was moving away from them and I was starting to create worship services and spots where I could preach. And I didn’t know I was doing it. It wasn’t intentional. It was reflecting a belief in the preached word and the need for the word to be preached and it was all that kind of stuff. And I stepped back and realized this was God moving us and moving me. My passion was changing to preaching and I needed to back up and start to discern God’s will and when was he going to open the door and how was that going to work? And so that passion advice is good for staff guys as well.

Here’s the next thing I’d tell you, and I see a lot of this now in recent years, young guys come out, they’re all fired up, they love the word, they have a deep sense of how this ought to be theologically or strategically or whatever, and they get in a situation after a while, they look at the senior pastor and they think, “Well, he’s not doing this right.” And they begin to take on the role as the “protector” of the church or the church police over the senior pastor and they’re creating real struggles and disunity in the church.

And so what I’d tell you as a staff guy is listen, when you take that staff role, you are submitting yourself in the way Christians submit themselves to the body and all of that. You are submitting to the church’s leadership that they’ve selected that pastor and they have that culture. And it’s not your role to fight that or change that. It’s not your role to correct that. And so if you can’t follow that culture, if you can’t follow that pastor, then you don’t need to fight the pastor. You need to find where God wants you to go.

That is a discernment thing that is really, really important I think for staff guys to begin to work through, especially early on in their ministry because figuring out. So we’re not saying that you’re hiding sin or letting things go that shouldn’t be or whatever, but there are bigger things involved in the authority of the church and the leadership of God and that and all of that. And it’s not your job to fight. It’s your job to be a part of advancing that culture in the gospel. And if that’s not where you should be, then you don’t fight it. You move. And I think that is really important and you do that without wreaking havoc. That’s one way. And you may be right and the senior pastor may be wrong, but it’s still not your place to fight that. And so I think that’s important.

Then there’s another one you get, as a staff guy, if you’ve hit a place where there’s just a clear lid on your ministry, you’ve got more vision, you’ve got more skill, you’ve got more passion, you’ve got more drive, and you can’t, in the church setting that you’re in, push further because either they won’t or they don’t have the budget or they don’t have the culture or whatever. There’s nothing negative. They love you. You’re being effective. In fact, you’re being effective enough that you’ve bumped the ceiling and you just can’t go anymore. You got more, God’s doing more and there’s no more place. There’s no more room there.

And so that’s an indicator that God has been working in your life, that you’re bearing fruit in your ministry and that’s all positive. And it means, hey, He’s done His work in you and you’ve accomplished what you’re doing there and so He’s going to move you somewhere else. And so don’t create difficulties or God told me in that setting I was in, don’t undo the good things you’ve done by creating stresses that create potentially disunity or whatever. Just realize, be faithful, be where it is, be grateful that God has taught you, He’s used you there, that you’ve borne fruit there. And then start discerning is God moving me? And you probably love those people. You probably love that church. You’re probably doing a good job and that’s why you grew and hit that lid. Well, God loves you. He has worked in there and now He’s probably beginning to stir your heart, loosen your heartstrings and say, “Hey, I’m going to move you to the next role now that you’re ready to do that.” And so I think those are pieces of advice for staff guys I think that are good.

Janet:

Okay. I’m thinking of some advice that I gave a friend who was a relatively new ministry wife, who they were praying through their first call to a ministry job. And she was asking me how I had processed and prayed through some of those decisions in the past. And I remember telling her that I felt like one way that God helped me was He started releasing me emotionally. My ministry focus would change and I wouldn’t be quite as… I don’t know, the situations in each church would change, but for her particularly, she was going to have to walk away from a job that she was really good at. She loved it. And COVID shut the job down. And so it didn’t hurt her heart as much to leave and go to this new place of ministry because she had already given that job up because it was taken away from her by the pandemic.

So I feel like there are times, sometimes God, He just… I don’t know, it’s hard to describe, but He releases my emotional heartstrings before I know that we’re about to go so it’s not as emotionally devastating when we do go. And sometimes it’s friends in the church might move or things like that, but somehow I’ve just seen God work that way with me. And that’s one way when it is time to pray through a decision, then I can look back and say, “Oh yeah, God’s been loosening up my heartstrings the closer we’ve got to this decision.” And that’s part of the process He uses with me to understand that I’m fixing to have to move on.

Greg:

No, I think that’s incredible wisdom. And I share the same thing with pastors too. If you are a good pastor, that word means shepherd. And that means you love your people and you shepherd them, you love them. And there’s a supernatural component to that as a pastor when you love the church and the body of Christ and there’s just something natural. You baptize them, you’ve seen them saved, you’ve cried in their hotel and hospital rooms, all this kind of stuff you’ve done with them and that wraps your heart around them, your heartstrings are wrapped around them. For God just to move you, it would rip chunks of your heart out as those heartstrings are just wrapped around that church.

And so I think it’s a supernatural thing that he does that Janet’s describing really well that he loosens our heartstrings. So it’s not that tearing apart, and I think He births for us in the place we go. He supernaturally births a love there for that people that can grow when we don’t even know them really. And He births that supernaturally. And so those things happen. And so that can be a leading indicator or it can be an affirmation that it’s time to go because these people that I’ve loved, all of a sudden I feel this. I’m recognizing that God is loosening that up so that I have the freedom to go.

Janet:

Well, and one more piece of advice I’ll share that was life-changingly impacting, I think, for us. When we were praying through leaving Bellevue and Adrian Rogers staff to go to our first lead pastor position, Pastor Rogers told me specifically, “Put down roots. When you get there, put down roots, but keep your suitcase in the closet so it’s easy to pack when God says it’s time to go.” But you got to be all in while you’re there. But with the understanding that at some point He may say, “Okay, we’re going.” And you got to be willing to pack up and go.

Greg:

Yep, it is true. Yeah, he gives incredible advice. And sometimes I wonder how guys pastor when they didn’t grow up listening to Dr. Rogers.

Janet:

In all his wisdom.

Greg:

It is just incredible. And that’s really true. And part of that is that you sink roots and you’re free to do that. Don’t be afraid to do that. Because of that effect Janet talked about a second ago, trusting that the Lord will release those heartstrings in a way that it doesn’t damage us when we pull out.

Janet:

It’s not fair to a church family to bring in a pastor who’s not all in. They know you’ve got one side of your heart with us, but we know you’d really rather be somewhere else. They need to know that you’re there for them until it’s time for you to separate from them. So I’ve had to learn that too, that they need to know that you’re all in, that you’re committed to them. So that’s part of the roots putting down, however that looks. And that doesn’t mean you have to buy a huge house in an expensive neighborhood to financially declare, “Hey, we’re on the hook here.” But your heart roots need to be there.

Greg:

Yeah. That is a great word, sweetheart. And it’s really true. I have learned to have a great sense of awe at what it means to be a pastor, and people need to know we’re in. And it makes a huge difference.

Janet:

It does, it does. Well, I don’t think I’ve ever told our listeners before that you are the current chairman of the board of Love Worth Finding. You were a Bellevue baby and Adrian Rogers baptized you. He married us. He ordained you as a deacon. He ordained you as a minister. He hired you as a staff pastor, and he sent you off when we left. And so I know he’s happy in heaven if he knows that you’re chairman of the board because of your connections. But I want you to just mention briefly one or two resources that Love Earth Finding does offer pastors to support them in their role and their responsibilities.

Greg:

I’ll do that because really what it means to be chairman of the board is I’m just a cheerleader. We have incredible people on our board and we have incredible staff that are full-time staff, and we have great pastoral staff on there, Cary Vaughn, our CEO is a pastor. And Dr. Rogers loved pastors. He spent an incredible amount of time encouraging pastors, especially young pastors. He loved preachers. And so the heart of the staff is to reflect that heart of Dr. Rogers and to capture that wisdom and provide that in as best way as we can to pastors.

And so if you go on the app or the website, Love Worth Finding, you’ll find a whole array of resources for pastors, sermons, question and answers, all kinds of stuff on there. One of the incredible resources is a 16 module video course that Dr. Rogers did called What Every Pastor Ought to Know. And it really breaks down the role and understanding of the structure of church, preaching preparation and all of that. It’s just really an incredible fountain of wisdom. And I would encourage all of you wives to encourage your husbands, share that with them, give them some time to just swim in that information and in that wisdom there.

Janet:

And this is a free resource that Love Worth Finding offers. So it’s got-

Greg:

Everything to pastors is free, which I think reflects the heart that Dr. Rogers had. And it also reflects the heart of the staff. They really have put a focus into reaching out to pastors and providing resources to pastors like this podcast as well.

Janet:

Yeah, so there’s the video lessons and downloadable worksheets that you can access at no charge. So that is a very meaningful, valuable resource, I think, that would bless a lot of pastors. So we wanted to highlight that just to make sure that y’all are aware of that. And I’ll put a link for that in the show notes. But thanks, honey, for talking with us. And it’s fun to retrace the journey of some of these conversations we have like this are almost like our piles of stones, like the stones of remembrance that the Hebrews would pile up to remember what God did for them.

So I think it’s always good to reflect on how God has moved, how God has led, how God has confirmed over the years. It’s always good to think on those things. So thanks for joining me.

Greg:

Thank you for having me.

Janet:

Yeah, and friend, I’m just going to remind you again like I do so often to keep loving Jesus. Stay in His word. Keep loving your husband, especially as he is trying to love his church family and be a good shepherd to them. And I also want to encourage you to keep loving your people until God tells you it’s time to go. So I’ll talk to you soon!